Episode 4 notes and transcript

In this episode, Christina talks to Nevin about having bipolar disorder and PTSD, teachers ignoring their accommodations, and why Nevin thinks schools shouldn't have grades or exams.

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Recommended resources:

A description of the Livescribe Pen, which we mention in the episode. I just think it’s really cool.

The Sad Ghost Club

Learning Outside the Lines, by Jonathan Mooney and David Cole

Some quotes from the episode:

"Having bipolar and going to school will cause complications. Because you have your bipolar schedule, which is your internal clock, that like determines how your mood is, and how well you can focus in class, and how well you can test take, and your anxiety level, and whether or not your thoughts are racing or — if you're depressed — if you can even get out of bed.The school calendar, it doesn't really care about any of that… With PTSD, you randomly have anxiety attacks. I still can't really predict when I'm going to have an anxiety attack, a flashback or something like that. So obviously, that affects schooling."

"I still am distrustful and feel as though [teachers] won't believe my experiences, both with trauma and also with my mood and my stability. So I do hear examples of people just going to office hours and being friendly and interacting with professors and that helps them in the class and I literally can never do that. I don't understand how people do that. It kind of stresses me out. Especially with PTSD, like power dynamics, in general, are really scary, from a safety perspective. And the thought of going to an office hour alone, in a place that you aren't familiar with, and trying to ask for help from someone who you don't really know. Seems dangerous and scary."

"It's better to let a few assignments be incomplete than to overdo it, and then you can't function for like a week. It's okay to let those few assignments drop. Even if you don't make the cut-off with a grade, in the long run, your mental health will be better and you'll be more functioning and a happier person."

Transcript:

Music: “Shaolin Dub” by Skinwalker

Christina Baker:

Hi and welcome to Beyond Accommodations at Disability U, a podcast where disabled Penn State students envision a world by us, for us. Hi, I'm Christina Baker and today my guest is Nevin. Nevin, would you like to introduce yourself?

Nevin:

Hi, my name is Nevin. My pronouns are they/them, I'm a junior. My major is secondary math education and my disability is bipolar one and PTSD.

Christina:

So can you just describe your disability and your history with it? Your diagnosis, how it's affected you in school, what accommodations you have, etc?

Nevin:

Yeah, sure. Like I said, my disability is mainly bipolar one and PTSD. And I got diagnosed when I was pretty young for people with bipolar, just because I had early-onset, so I got diagnosed as soon as I turned 18. And then I also got diagnosed with PTSD while I was 18. But I was about to turn 19. School with both illnesses have been difficult. So I was given disability accommodations towards the end of my first semester at college. And I get extended time. I also get leniency on attendance. And I get a separate room for test taking. And I've tried out some of the other accommodations that they have, but since school has been mostly online, I haven't really needed to use them.

Nevin:

So I guess the ways that my disabilities affect school for me, I guess the first one, bipolar. So bipolar one, which is what I'm diagnosed with, is an illness where the person experiences cycles of mania and depression. I believe bipolar one differs from bipolar two because the severity of mania is larger. So obviously, having bipolar and going to school will cause complications because, you know, you have your like bipolar schedule, which is your internal clock, that like determines how your mood is and how well you can focus in class and how well you can test take and your anxiety level and whether or not your thoughts are racing or, like let's say if you're depressed, if you can even get out of bed. Where the school calendar, it doesn't really care about any of that. It's the same like five days a week, whatever your class schedule is, and you can't really anticipate when your episodes are going to happen or when you're going to be depressed or anything. You kind of just have to hope for the best. And then PTSD is similar. It's just more unpredictable because instead of being able to vaguely know, oh, like, “I'll have two months of mania,” like “I'll have like a month of depression,” those types of things. With PTSD, you randomly have anxiety attacks. Anything can trigger you, really. I've been living with PTSD for a while, a few years now. And I still can't really predict when I'm going to have like an anxiety attack, like a flashback or something like that. So obviously, that affects schooling.

Christina:

You didn't have these diagnoses or any accommodations in high school. So what was the process for receiving accommodations in college like?

Nevin:

It wasn't honestly that long of a process, but that was also because I was in an emergency situation. The reason I got SDR accommodations was because the traumatic event that caused my PTSD occurred. And then student advocacy and CAPS got involved and tried to get me into a safer situation. And I guess, when traumatic things happen to students, the school can't really do much. I guess I'll speak specifically, so like my experience was with sexual violence. And depending on the situation and whether or not the student actually wants to go forward with filing against their abuser, the school cannot do much, really, for legal reasons, which was really difficult. But that's why they kind of were more lenient with my accommodations. And they just wanted to help me somehow, because they saw I was in a really terrible situation, but couldn't really do much to help outside of that.

Christina:

When are sometimes when you noticed in school that the classes weren't really designed for people who have your disabilities?

Nevin:

So, one time that I realized that the school wasn't designed for me was right when I'd gotten out of the hospital, like I had just been traumatized and things like that. And I emailed one of my professors, because there was an attendance policy in the class and I wasn't – obviously I couldn't be there that day. So I emailed the professor, [I] was like, “Hey, I just went through some traumatic events recently, and I'm not really functional right now. Is it okay if I'm absent and if I get someone to send me the notes?” And the professor literally, like in quotes said, “There's no such thing as an excused absence.” I mean, I didn't say anything in response. I just went straight to SDR and was like, “What do I do?” And basically it was this big conflict over nothing, because he was basically saying, like, he wouldn't let me miss class. He wouldn't let me use my laptop in class to take notes. He wouldn't let me really have any of my accommodations. And then everything went online because of COVID. So it didn't matter.

Christina:

Yeah, I remember you mentioning this story to me before. Can you elaborate on the note taking part?

Nevin:

Sure. So for me, I use my laptop to take notes for a variety of reasons. One is that I get, especially when I’m manic, I get really bad tremors and I cannot write or really hold a pencil or anything. And also, when I'm manic, I feel like everything has to be perfect. And if my handwriting isn’t perfect, I just erase excessively and keep rewriting until it's perfect. And then like I've already missed two slides of notes. So taking notes on a laptop helps because I don't have to worry about mistakes, because they're really easy to fix. And if I'm having tremors or a lot of anxiety, I can kind of just push buttons and not have to worry about, like, writing letters.

Christina:

I remember you also said something about your eyes not being able to focus, right?

Nevin:

Yes. When I'm experiencing extreme mania, it is really hard for me to focus on reading and writing. Reading it’s difficult but there's not much you can really do about that. I mean I know that they have audio, they can read it for you and I have utilized that before on like exams and stuff.

Christina:

Oh, like a screen reader.

Nevin:

Yeah. Or like the proctor will just read the questions to me. But for writing, I feel like, to stay within the lines on a piece of paper and draw the letters and all of those things you have to be able to see. And, when you're manic. For me personally, my vision blurs randomly and it will go back and forth and it's hard to focus on things. Writing it on laptops is easier for me because I can, like, highlight the text, I can make the font bigger and smaller and I can adjust it however I need to be able to read it. But obviously you can't do that when you're writing with, like, a pen.

Christina:

And this professor just didn't care.

Nevin:

Yeah [laughs]. He was a character. He was one of those professors that hated technology and thought, like, technology was destroying the generations or whatever. Which is weird. He had this idea that students learn better when they actually write the material. And students focus more when they don't have their flashy little screens going off and people behind can look over their shoulder and see them playing like some video game or something. I don't know.

Christina:

Yeah. And that's, I think, there are studies backing that up. But I think those studies are generally for people who can see.

Nevin:

Certainly. Actually there's a lot of research that not allowing technology in classrooms is just very, very bad for disabled students, not just people who can't see, or who have like visual impairments or who are bipolar like me.

Christina:

Yeah, and I don't have either of those things. However, I don't like it when professors say no technology in class just because of the vibes.

Nevin:

Yeah, certainly.

Christina:

After hearing stories like yours, especially, I'm just like, “Why do you want me to not use my laptop? I get pretty good grades. And I always take notes on my laptop.”

Nevin:

I tried explaining to the professor because we were literally about to have a meeting with my SDR advisor and him and the business department. Oh yeah, it was the business department.

Christina:

Yeah, I have heard a lot of stories like this. Well, not like that many but considering that the behavior you're describing is illegal, it has been a lot. And often those stories are from the business department. I've mentioned this story or stories like this to people who are, like, arts majors and they're like, “What? None of my professors would ever do something like that.” And it's like, “hmmm.”

Christina:

So can you give any other examples of problems that your disability has caused for you in school?

Nevin:

I would say my ability to communicate is really heavily affected by bipolar. For example, when I'm depressed, I speak more monotone and I am more quiet and I don't really raise my hand or enunciate or anything. And sometimes that's difficult to hear. But the part that has caused me issues is when I’m manic and I'll be giving a class presentation. And my teacher will be like, “You're yelling.” I guess a lot of disorders have this as an overlapping issue but mania and like bipolar is one of them, where you can't really tell how loud you are. And you – kind of the way that you talk is different as well. Like it kind of is more emotional, and more unpredictable. Not that I was saying things that were, like, not good, but it's just that the way that I was speaking was causing people to have anxiety in the class and stuff like that.

Christina:

How would you say that your teachers reacted to your needs?

Nevin:

I would say before I switched majors, really, really, really badly. I was a business major and I have really recently switched to be an education major. So before I switched majors, for example, I actually just very, very recently was hospitalized for a little more than three weeks, which is a very long time to be hospitalized. And it was because my bipolar medication was just wrong. Like it was just not helping and I was really spiraling and it was really bad. So I missed three weeks of school in the mental hospital with no access to technology. And then I get out of the mental hospital. And for some reason, I was like, “I can finish the semester.” So I basically emailed my teachers. And one of my professors — I guess one thing I should mention is my old major was extremely academically problematic.

Christina:

Rigorous?

Nevin:

Yes, but problematic is the word I'm using, because they have a really bad mindset surrounding academics. The teachers in my major are the type of teachers to be like, “If you don't get above a 75 on the first exam, you might as well as switch majors, you might as well drop out.” That was the mindset. So I emailed one of my teachers in this department that I was hospitalized for three weeks. And he was like, “You have until next week to catch up. You have until before next class to finish all of the quizzes, exams, homeworks and learn all of the material that you missed.” Which, obviously for somebody coming out of the mental hospital, that's not great to hear. Especially because that was a difficult class. And honestly, I think that that kind of was replicated by all the other professors in that major in that field. Just that mentality that you kind of missed work and you need to make it up and that's on you. And not understanding the disability component of it, that like it's not my fault that I missed that work and I need help catching up. Not just because I miss a lot of work. But also because I'm like disabled and like needed assistance. It's not reasonable to ask even a neurotypical student to catch up on three weeks worth of material on their own. And then asking a disabled student that, it's harder because then they kind of have no way to ask for assistance or anything.

Christina:

And because you use the word neurotypical, just a quick definition of neurodivergent and neurotypical. Neurodivergent refers to anyone whose brain is fundamentally different from a normal brain. So this term was coined initially to describe ADHD and autism, I believe, and it often is used to refer to those two disabilities. However, it also refers to anyone with, for instance, PTSD, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, any learning disability like dyslexia or central auditory processing disorder. And then neurotypical refers to anyone who does not have one of those disabilities.

Christina:

So you've sort of already covered this but are there any other examples you can think of where you experienced ableism from your teachers?

Nevin:

I think a lot of ableism I experience isn't necessarily always the overt ableism that's like, “No I won't let you use your disability accommodations in class.” I think it's more just the passive ableism where they kind of look at you funny when you say that you need to take a couple days off for mental health. And like, it seems like they're about to say something but they don't, because they feel they aren't allowed. It's difficult because I feel like, especially with bipolar and PTSD, people just take bipolar less seriously. The idea that you need to be accommodated for bipolar is not something that people are aware of. I guess people kind of view me as a little bit unhinged. And I'm kind of just faking it for attention, and things like that. Which certainly ableist people think of all disabled people.

Christina:

How do you think all of this affected your grades and your ability to learn?

Nevin:

Well, I guess last semester is a good example because that's the semester where I was in the mental hospital because of my mood stability and trauma and things like that. I had to withdraw. So my grades were all W's. Which is great. Obviously, W's don't necessarily affect your GPA, but they do show up in your transcripts. And it did put me a whole semester behind. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that I switched majors which put me even further behind. But certainly that’s a severe example that not everybody with disabilities experience, but even the semesters where I am not withdrawing. Like right now, like I'm presumably not withdrawing. There are a lot of days where my mental health is not good. And I guess the expectation with getting accommodations is that you have to ask 24 hours in advance, or else you just can't get them. So there are some days where I just don't do my homework or I, like, won't do a quiz because I mentally and physically can't do it. And I can't really do anything about that because if I try to get an extension or something teachers will just say that I'm irresponsible and should have done it a different time.

Christina:

Do you have extensions as part of your accommodations?

Nevin:

No. I should. Basically the reason I don't have it is because it's difficult to get. And I've worked with my SDR advisors. And whenever I need an extension on something, it's kind of informal right now where like, I'll just CC them on the email. And the teacher can give the extension if they want and don't have to if they don't want to. I haven't really like needed that one specifically. Just because it usually happens the day of, where I start realizing that I'm having major issues and can't do certain things. And I just, I guess I feel too embarrassed to reach out for help in those situations. So I haven't really sought out that accommodation. But one of the symptoms of my mania is psychosis and like hallucination, and literally delusions, all sorts of things that should not be in a classroom. So I still go to class. And I just like, hear the teacher and also hear the voices and it's a good time. [laughs]

Christina:

And are there other symptoms or like aspects of your disability that impacted you in school?

Nevin:

I don't know if I've talked a lot about test taking, but it's kind of the same things that apply with note taking as well. Like, it's difficult to read, it's difficult to concentrate. Especially when I'm manic, I have really, really bad test taking anxiety because my mania, part of it will tell me, like “You're gonna fail, you're not – you have no future, you're not capable.” Just, you know, classic negative self-talk. But like, sometimes it's not my own voice. Sometimes I need to just take literally like five to 10 to 15 minute breaks, just trying to calm myself down, trying to get myself to be able to read again, trying to, like, not pass out.

Christina:

I remember when you mentioned, the first time you told me that you get your hands shaking because of your disability. That was something that, I guess it made sense, but I didn't know that previously. Are there any other physical symptoms like that, that you have that people wouldn't assume or think about with PTSD and bipolar disorder?

Nevin:

Yeah, one thing I should say is I have been heavily medicated for a long time. So it is difficult to tell what side effects are from the medication and what side effects are from the bipolar itself. But my teeth will chatter sometimes. Especially when I'm really overwhelmed, it feels like there's, like, ants on my skin. And it makes it hard to, like, wear clothing. Sometimes I have a hard time falling asleep just because of wearing clothing and also the blanket or really just touching anything. Like even standing, like, it stresses me out. Sometimes I wish I could just float, but that's not possible. But there's a lot of physical sensations around my eyes. I guess ways that I've described them before is that it feels like they're literally gonna fall out. And it feels like they're really wide open, that they're being held wide open. Oh, and twitching. That happens.

Nevin:

Eating is a common thing associated with bipolar — not eating I mean. Having problems eating. Not just – I used to have an eating disorder, but I would say that I've recovered from that eating disorder. And people still think that I have an eating disorder because of how I eat when I'm manic. Like I actually don't know if this is because of my mania or because of other illnesses that I may have. But I obviously have, like, safe foods and I can only eat a very, very small amount of things. And sometimes I'll not eat at all for like a day or two, or in severe situations that can last longer, and not even notice because it just completely gets rid of my appetite. But the problem is, even if you don't notice your appetite or like that you're hungry or something and you haven't eaten for like two or three days, it's probably going to be harder to function in class. And, you know, walk around. I'll be walking to class and be like, “Wow, my legs feel really really weak right now.” And then my roommate will be like, “Yeah, it’s because you've only been pickles for the past four days.” So I guess that's how when I’m manic it affects me in a way that people might not expect.

Christina:

I remember my freshman year, I don't think I've ever been more mentally ill than my freshman year. And I remember the next semester I had a roommate, and my first semester I didn't. And she went to bed at a reasonable hour. Not on the weekends, but normally she went to bed at a reasonable hour. And so I started going to bed at a reasonable hour. And I was like, “Wait, I was only sleeping like four hours last semester.” And I was like, “Wait. I was, like, not eating last semester.” And then I was like, “I bet that that was my problem.”

Nevin:

Yeah, I definitely relate to that. I mean, there was some periods of time where I had a normal sleep schedule, where I would go to sleep at like 10 or 11 and wake up. I mean, for me a normal sleep schedule was sleeping like 11 hours, which is a lot, but an abnormal sleep schedule is sleeping like, two or less. I don't know. And like when I’m manic, I will go weeks with only getting maybe two or three hours of sleep a night and feel completely fine, but obviously not actually be completely fine.

Christina:

Not actually functioning like you would if you had slept enough.

Nevin:

Yes. And it's like partially because I feel like I don't need to sleep. And it's also partially because I actually can't fall asleep, even if I try.

Christina:

So now we're going to move into part two of this podcast, which is where we discuss what an education system or a school that was created for people with your disabilities would look like. Let's just start with classes. Like how the structure of classes would be for people who have PTSD and bipolar disorder?

Nevin:

One thing I found helpful was when we were kind of in that hybrid stage between online and in person where you can go in person to learn but if you need to stay in bed, there are recordings available. And not just zoom lectures. I mean like recordings that can be accessed at any time throughout the semester. Because not only would that help with the attendance issue that we were talking about, or like the eating or the sleeping issues, or like the psychosis issue where you can't attend class, but it would also help for me, where it's harder to read and focus and things in class. So that would help me fill in the gaps and be able to look at the PowerPoints. And certainly there are already accommodations that can kind of do that. There's the Livescribe pen, which I used for a little bit and it records the lectures and you'll be like taking notes and then you can just tap the part on your notepad with your pen and then it'll bring you back to that point in the recording. That was helpful. It was just kind of a pain to use. I feel like if this entire school system classroom environment was built for people with bipolar then there would just be recordings that can be accessible and no attendance policies or anything. Oh, that would also help with the transportation issue on days where I like haven't eaten. If there was the online lectures, I wouldn't have to worry about if I can actually make it to class without feeling like I'm going to pass out. I feel like just having more mobility assistance available. Some days when I haven’t eaten and I haven't really slept and I'm manic and having trouble walking around, like I do use a cane. And that is helpful. So if those were just made available to students, I guess through SDR or something. I don't know how that works, but maybe that would be helpful.

Christina:

Yeah, and I mean, mobility aids are extremely expensive, probably not canes, but wheelchairs are thousands of dollars. And a lot of people just can't afford them. You know, when they say that colleges and workplaces are required to provide accommodations unless it constitutes an undue burden, I do kind of feel like they should be paying for wheelchairs. Like your students can't get to class if you don't pay for them to have a wheelchair. Now, if you can afford college, maybe you can be a little bit more likely to afford a wheelchair but especially when it comes to, like, jobs. You can't get a job if you don't have a wheelchair.

Nevin:

Even if you have a wheelchair, it's hard to get a job.

Christina:

Oh, that's definitely true.

Nevin:

You can't be, like, a server if you have a wheelchair, and that was one of the things that one of my friends ran into. Because they use a wheelchair and they couldn't get a fast food job or anything like that. The low-paying jobs that high school students, or young adults usually get to help pay for school.

Christina:

Yeah, I just feel like college should pay for mobility aids.

Nevin:

Yeah.

Christina:

I think college should pay for my therapy, honestly.

Nevin:

Yeah, it's like the cause.

Christina:

Like, how am I supposed to pass your classes if I don't have a therapist? Like, college does pay for therapy [if you use Counseling and Psychological Services]. I went to CAPS and was like, “Do you have anybody who specializes in my disability?” and they were like, “No, no, we do not. Here's a list of private therapists.” And so now I have to pay for therapy. And I just think maybe they should be paying for that considering they're the people who don't have any therapists trained to help me

Nevin:

And they only let you have eight sessions as well. I used that my first semester.

Christina:

They only let you have eight sessions? I did not know that because I can't go to CAPS.

Nevin:

Yeah, they only let you have eight sessions. Actually. I thought it was just for therapy. But my – my psychiatrist literally just dropped me out of nowhere, my Penn State psychiatrist just dropped me because she was like, “We're not long term.” And so I still don't have a psychiatrist and I'm getting my meds prescribed by random – Like it was my family doctor, but then I can't go to him anymore because now I'm on state insurance because when I went to the hospital I got on state insurance. So now — and he doesn’t accept state insurance. It’s this whole mess.

Nevin:

Basically like an education system that would be good for people with my disability would be one in which the United States had universal health care and also free college and no exams, and everything was online, and we got canes and wheelchairs. So basically, everything needs to change. Also, I think that, I mean, there shouldn't be tests. I don't think I can think of an example of a test that, like, is disability friendly, for me with bipolar or for anyone with disabilities. You know, I mean, I guess if there has to be exams, you would be able to determine the time when you take it throughout the week. Or if you can't take it that week, then there would be no penalty. You just take it whenever you feel you're mentally able. And the questions can't be as long. Sometimes the questions on exams will be like a paragraph or something or two paragraphs and like, especially when I'm stressed out and manic and overwhelmed and having panic attacks, I can't read that much. Like I can't focus. For me just putting the words together to create a sentence and like being able to focus on that is a task in and of itself. But like, having to like read two paragraphs? I'm just clicking randomly. That’s a guess.

Christina:

So how would classwork change if we were in a school that was created for people with your disability?

Nevin:

I mean, it would be given less. I feel like for having PTSD, specifically, it takes a lot to be able to function. It takes a lot of just lying in bed and giving yourself a pep talk, that you're going to be okay and that the world is safe and trying to convince yourself that you'll be okay. Even if it's just going to the bathroom, going outside your house, things like that. And just those types of practices where you work on trying to feel safe in your own body and the world again, we should be allowed to have more time to do those things. And having to go to classes, and then also do coursework, and then study for exams, it takes up a lot of time. Not only is it cutting into necessities like sleep, and eating, and like socializing and just living. It's also, for people with disabilities, at least with my disabilities, cutting into time it takes to heal and function. So ideally, it would be given less, the due dates would be more flexible. Also, I guess like I mentioned earlier, less text, bigger text, just things like that.

Christina:

So when you're thinking about what classes would look like, do you have an opinion on whether they would be lecture-based or you know, interactive, whether you’d be doing work in class, that sort of thing?

Nevin:

It's difficult because I also have social anxiety and things like that. And interactive work can be really helpful for people with disabilities. But it can also be like really not helpful. I guess, for bipolar, PTSD, specifically I guess, working individually but being able to like, talk to others or ask a teacher for help or like things like that. That would be helpful because it would help me get out of my own head. Or if like I needed help understanding what a question meant or reading the question I could ask for help.

Christina:

That makes me think of just the concept of participating in class and getting graded for participating in class. That seems a little unfair in the context of someone like you, whose ability to participate to the fullest extent sort of changes based on the day.

Nevin:

That’s true. I feel like everybody has different needs and not only do I have bipolar and PTSD but I have many other disorders that affect my ability to communicate and function as a person. And literally some days, and with some people, I might be completely fine. And I might even work better working with people. But on other days, I will literally just spend the entire class period worried about if I'm safe or worrying about how other people view me. Things like that. With bipolar, where you're hyper fixating on, especially, social reactions, it can just make it more difficult to concentrate.

Christina:

And how do you feel about relationships with professors?

Nevin:

Like, communicating with professors and things like that?

Christina:

Yeah, I've talked to a lot of people on this podcast who have ADHD or autism or stuff like that. And they said that often the experiences that they have with teachers when they're younger makes it difficult for them to have relationships with professors today. And I'm wondering how your disability impacts your relationships with professors.

Nevin:

So in high school, like I mentioned, I was unmedicated for bipolar. And obviously, that led to a lot of conflicts with everybody, but especially authority figures like teachers. And I always felt that teachers never understood my situation or wanted to advocate for me. They just felt that I was attention-seeking and things like that. And certainly that mindset has carried over until college, even though I am medicated, and the environment is different. I still am distrustful and feel as though they won't believe my experiences, both with trauma and also with my mood and my stability. So I do hear examples of people just going to office hours and being friendly and interacting with professors and that helps them in the class and I literally can never do that. I don't understand how people do that. It kind of stresses me out. Especially like with PTSD, like power dynamics, in general, are really scary, from a safety perspective. And the thought of going to an office hour alone, in a place that you aren't familiar with, and trying to ask for help from someone who you don't really know. Seems, like, dangerous and scary. Triggering.

Christina:

Someone on the autism episode of this podcast said that he really likes when professors have virtual office hours. Is there anything that you think a professor could do to make you more comfortable reaching out, or more comfortable in their class or just talking to them in general?

Nevin:

Virtual ones would help. And I think – I think something that teachers do sometimes is: If you ask a question, and it kind of reveals that you're not as far along as maybe the rest of the class, the teacher just looks down on you and is just like, “Read the textbook.” Or like, “You should have listened,” or something like that. And that's really hard for a student to hear. Especially for me, where I miss class and have points where it's hard for me to focus and just where like, I also am just getting in my own head and telling myself I'm not capable. All of that stuff makes it easier for me to fall behind. And it's harder to reach out the further behind you are. So I guess just creating an environment in the classroom where students know that no matter where they're at, they can ask any question and you’ll genuinely try to help them through. To not just like, make the question go away, but to actually help them understand, try to find the missing piece.

Christina:

So how did remote learning work for you?

Nevin:

Honestly, the past few years have been a blur. I don't think they've worked because I'm not where I thought I would be, education-wise. Looking back, I feel like I haven't learned anything at all, which is really scary because I spent a lot of time, a lot of stress and a lot of, like, my parents' money. Which was not good for our relationship. Just to be watching professors struggle to use Zoom. It wasn't great at all. I don't think it was worth it. If I go back in time, I don't even know if I would have gone to college. Just being real, like, it's been traumatic.

Christina:

Are there aspects of your disability that did or didn't work with remote learning?

Nevin:

Yeah. It is harder to focus when you're not in person for me, which I know might sound contradictory to what I was saying before about how we need things to be online. But I would say having things online is better than nothing. But for me personally, like, being in person and seeing people move around and talk is just helpful for me staying focused. And I just learn better that way. I'm sure there's many other reasons why I learn better that way. I just haven't necessarily thought about them.

Christina:

That's something that I think a lot of people tend not to realize, is that a disability — I would say most disabilities — vary based on the day. And sometimes, some of your symptoms are better or worse, and you can handle more or less of certain things. And sometimes certain symptoms will be so distracting that you have to do it online, and you can't focus if you're in person. And sometimes your symptoms aren't as bad and so you can only focus in person.

Nevin:

Yeah.

Christina:

And that goes for like, sometimes you can complete schoolwork and sometimes you can't.

Nevin:

Exactly. Like, there are some days where I technically could walk to class and make it there and like not have issues but I would just learn better online, just where my headspace is at.

Christina:

Yeah, I think having that understanding would be part of any school created for almost any disability.

Christina:

We’ve talked a little bit about how you use technology to take notes. Is there anything else about technology that you think would be incorporated in a school for people with your disability?

Nevin:

I recently got noise-canceling headphones and that helps a lot with anxiety and just not getting overwhelmed. So I guess we would be allowed to use headphones and those headphones would be made available to people. Oh, another thing. The lights are dimmer and things like that. Just like, accessibility things.

Christina:

Being able to control things about your environment.

Nevin:

Yes. Which is hard when different people have different needs. But like I think generally it's fair to say that most people would prefer the lights not being extremely bright.

Christina:

So I think now we can move into part three, which is how you cope within the current education system. The ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, requires that colleges have to provide reasonable accommodations and they don't have to provide accommodations if that would be considered an undue burden. Are there any accommodations that you want that you can't get because they will be considered unreasonable?

Nevin:

Probably technology. A lot of people don't have access to laptops and things that are always working. Mine is very, very broken in a lot of ways. It makes it difficult to take notes and go onto lectures and things like that. So I guess providing resources to students, like technology resources.

Nevin:

Some days, I need to be in a physical space, like a classroom, with the teacher to learn, but can't be in big crowds. So if there were reduced class sizes, specifically for people with, like, anxiety and trauma. I mean, I can see how that could go wrong, but it could also be helpful. I don't know.

Christina:

I mean, it kind of sounds like you want a tutor.

Nevin:

Another accommodation would be what food is available at the dining hall, or what food is available near living spaces. Because a lot of people with disabilities can't have – for me personally, I'm a very picky eater and, especially when I'm manic, it's harder for me to eat certain things.

Christina

I cannot live on campus and part of the reason that I can't live on campus — actually, 100% of the reason that I can't live on campus — is the dining halls are just so bad. First of all, I do genuinely like cooking for myself. But also, as a vegetarian, when it's been like a week and every other day lunch has been the same chickpea curry, [which is] okay sometimes. But when you go to the dining hall and you look at the options and it's the same chickpea curry that you've had three times this week, or the salad bar where the only protein options are raw tofu and meat, you just have to move off campus. You're a vegetarian, right? [Nevin shakes their head] You used to be a vegetarian —

Nevin:

I used to be a vegetarian and the reason I cannot be a vegetarian is because of how picky of an eater I am.

Christina:

And also, I would not blame you if you said it was because of the dining hall.

Nevin:

That is actually what it is.

Christina:

Yeah.

Nevin:

Yeah, like I basically only live off of my meal plan. And I like half eat at the dining hall. And there's always one shitty vegetarian option. And if it was more accessible, honestly, I would like it better. But it's just hard on its own just eating without pork because I just found out that the fucking vodka sauce at the dining hall has pork in it.

Christina:

That's crazy. I thought that was usually chicken broth.

Christina:

Well, something that I noticed you talked about just not having to take an exam when you're having a manic episode.

Nevin:

Oh yeah. Not even just having to take exams when I'm manic. Not having to take exams.

Christina:

Just replace them with essays or something.

Nevin:

Yeah, but like how do you do that for math?

Christina:

I don’t know. I don’t think about math.

Nevin:

See, cuz this is sad. But that's one of the main reasons why I've been a math major in that field. Is because, like, I literally can't read. When you're, let's say a social studies secondary education major or like an English secondary education teacher. There’s a lot of writing, obviously, but a lot of reading and writing and I love those subjects but I just can't do that. Like, I can't process information that fast. And I can't focus on words like that and read, really. I mean, I think that's more like my learning disability than my bipolar. But certainly my mania makes it 100 times worse. It's hard because people with disabilities are really excluded from a lot of fields and studies and it's difficult.

Christina:

What do you wish you knew when you were starting college?

Nevin:

It's better to let a few assignments be incomplete than to overdo it, and then you can't function for like a week. It's okay to let those few assignments drop. Even if you don't make the cut-off with a grade, in the long run, your mental health will be better and you'll be more functioning and a happier person.

Christina:

What advice would you give to other students with your disability?

Nevin:

Get accommodations. A lot of people with bipolar, or even just depression, feel that accommodations aren't for them. Because I didn't think accommodations were for me. I thought it was only for people with ADHD and severe test-taking anxiety, so I didn't think that I would be able to get it. But it's not going to help perfectly, but it has helped a great deal. Try to advocate for yourself. And if you can't, if you feel too uncomfortable, like, emailing professors, explaining your situation, go to student advocacy and they'll advocate for you. Just don't let the school system walk all over you. You deserve to be here and you’re just as capable as everyone else. It doesn't matter that you have trauma or that you have bipolar, you can still be a student and function.

Christina:

And what strategies and outside help, apart from your accommodations, do you use in school?

Nevin:

I use my support network a lot. It's not great. I just depend on them in a lot of cases emotionally, especially when I'm not doing great. And especially right now, I don't really have access to therapy, like I've been trying to get into therapy for weeks now. And it's just not working. And I've been trying to get top surgery as well, which is necessary for my mental health. And it's just not working. So I guess my supports kind of have to, I mean they don’t have to, but a lot of them end up taking care of me and checking on me, know when to call crisis, and it's not a good situation, but that's the main thing that I rely on.

Christina:

What would you say to professors who have students with your disability?

Nevin:

Don't be judgmental. Believe them. When they email you frantically that they can't do the assignment because they are having a mental breakdown, things like that. Just believe your students, work with them and ask them what help they need and try to give them that if you can.

Christina:

And are there any resources, like books or social media accounts, that you would recommend for people with your disability or people who want to learn more about your disability?

Nevin:

The main ones are just like the little self care accounts. You know, like the Sad Ghost Club? I feel like, especially if you're having a bad day with bipolar, and you're just not functioning, just looking at those messages. And they're always like, “You are worthy.” And I'm just like, “I'm worthy!” [laughs] I don't know, I don't know any specifically related to PTSD or bipolar, though. So, sorry about that.

Christina:

And is there anything else that you'd like to say or that you want people to know?

Nevin:

Just be there for people who are struggling. And like, don't judge them for their situation. It's not necessarily representative of who they are. And it's also not necessarily their fault.

Christina:

Well, this has been Beyond Accommodations at Disability U. I'm Christina Baker, and thank you, Nevin, for joining me. If you'd like more information about the topics discussed today, please check out the resources on this podcast’s website. And make sure to listen to all the other episodes. As a reminder, this podcast was intended to be one part of a larger conversation about disability in education and disability in American life. I hope you keep listening.

Music: “Shaolin Dub” by Skinwalker